Absolutely it can.
Power-assisted brakes, power-assisted steering, etc, aren’t those all artifical enhancements? But I also embrace DCT’s, ABS, etc. I know I’m not Hammy or Alonso or Senna.
I’m completely on board with EVs, and I’d even buy one today if I was more confident in the charging infrastructure.
I just hope, like J.G. said, that I can have some kind of ICE car for fun weekend drives or track days.
z31maniac said:
Absolutely it can.
Power-assisted brakes, power-assisted steering, etc, aren’t those all artifical enhancements? But I also embrace DCT’s, ABS, etc. I know I’m not Hammy or Alonso or Senna.
I am reminded of the Douglas Adams quote where everything that existed before you were a certain age was just how the world worked, everything introduced after a certain age was something ruining the world.
I’m in your camp. I’m endlessly amused by the idea that an automatic transmission, or ABS, or some weird artificial sound effect, dissociates one from the driving experience, but feel-numbing power steering or power brakes are A-OK. Of course it isn’t an all-or-nothing affair, but the hills people choose to die on are kind of interesting.
I like to call ABS, stability control, automatic transmissions, etc. “technology banned in Formula One”. It’s all about the spin! And speaking of which, if someone is going to do an artifical V8 soundtrack, make mine a DFV.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Oh I like that idea. I’d love to be able to download all sorts of different engine sounds.
Why stop at cars? If you can make my Ioniq 5 N sound like a P-51 Mustang, sign me up.
You’ll never win me over on an automatic being more fun. *eyes the 4HP22 in the corner distatefully* But I’m sure glad they’re trying, and I’d love nothing more than for them to prove me wrong.
The google wormhole into specs and whatnot led me to the N Vision 74, which somehow I’d never seen. I think the 5 N is pretty good looking, but if they make it look like this, and let me program it to feel and sound like I want it to sound….I’d definitely check it out. Yeah, make it sound like it has a feisty 07K in it with a good flappy paddle gearbox, and I bet it could coax a smile out of me.
I’ll throw some fuel on the fire with this Tesla exhaust system. That one is even more interesting to me because it’s aimed at those outside the car… I’m not even sure it’s about having an authentic experience, it’s about producing one for others?
I’m not sure asking whether it’s an “authentic driving experience” is the meaningful question. If you’re having a fake driving experience it’s not authentic–but if it’s the driving experience you want, are you allowed to enjoy it? I mean, that’s up to you, not me.
For some of us, simply the knowledge that it’s fake makes the experience less enjoyable. I disabled the fake engine noise on my Focus RS because the obvious fakery of it detracts my driving experience. Yet, if the noise were real, I’d enjoy it.
I think this is actually a totally separate discussion from driver assist technologies. There’s nothing un-authentic about automatic transmissions, ABS and power brakes. One of the things I love about my Formula Vee is that it has none of those things. It’s got 4 wheels (that you can see from the cockpit!), a (terrible) manual steering box, (near-useless) unassisted brakes, and ridiculous Beetle swing-arm suspension. It provides a fantastic driving experience; it’s raw and poorly engineered and I love it. But there’s certainly nothing unauthentic about driving my Miata on the track with it’s (by comparison) space-age suspension technology that insulates me from the track surface and makes me feel numb by comparison. I have no idea what it’s like to drive, say, a modern 911 on the track, and I’m not really interested, but whatever that experience is, it’s still authentic.
But what if you start piping fake noises into a track car? And maybe it has a purpose– Maybe you think the tire feedback isn’t good enough, so you pipe in some fake tire screaching. Maybe the fake engine noise from your EV allows you to better modulate the “throttle” on corner exit? Maybe you put the seat on hydraulics so that it gives you the sensation of the brakes locking up before they actually do so that you can better modulate the brakes?
You can see a path there that starts to seem more like sim racing in a real car on the track–and that’s a less authentic experience for sure. I’m not saying it’s bad or de facto less enjoyable, but it’s not authentic and it’s not the experience I’m looking for.
z31maniac said:
Power-assisted brakes, power-assisted steering, etc, aren’t those all artifical enhancements? But I also embrace DCT’s, ABS, etc. I know I’m not Hammy or Alonso or Senna.
No, those are methods of controlling the vehicle. I don’t have any problem with automatic transmissions. Whether controls are power-assisted or not is irrelevant. They provide whatever mechanical feedback they provide, and that is authentic.
But anything that adds artificially-generated feedback is NOT authentic. And not enjoyable to me.
In reply to Duke :
Without devolving into a Morpheus-Matrix, Plato’s Cave chin scratch of a discussion, I have driven fairly crude video games/sim setups (Need for Speed: Porsche Unleashed, Logitech Formula Force GP wheel) that had better steering feel and feedback than some rack-mounted electric power steering setups.
Authentic or not it I find it completely pretentious.
It’s like Jack in the Box changing it’s name to Jacque En Le Boîte and having burgers named Le Grande Vache
The manufacturer is telling us they think we are so fragile that our minds will implode if we drive a car without an exhaust note.
If people like it or find it fun, that’s fine but it doesn’t make it any less pretentious.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
In reply to Duke :
Without devolving into a Morpheus-Matrix, Plato’s Cave chin scratch of a discussion, I have driven fairly crude video games/sim setups (Need for Speed: Porsche Unleashed, Logitech Formula Force GP wheel) that had better steering feel and feedback than some rack-mounted electric power steering setups.
I’m not arguing that point at all.
They may very well be better. But they are not authentic.
Duke said:
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
In reply to Duke :
Without devolving into a Morpheus-Matrix, Plato’s Cave chin scratch of a discussion, I have driven fairly crude video games/sim setups (Need for Speed: Porsche Unleashed, Logitech Formula Force GP wheel) that had better steering feel and feedback than some rack-mounted electric power steering setups.
I’m not arguing that point at all.
They may very well be better. But they are not authentic.
Sorry; if they exist, they are authentic.
A slightly different take, maybe, just occurred to me.
Any time and effort spent on mimicking something else detracts from the ability to discern and improve what the thing really is.
Time spent chasing something else’s character is time wasted wandering down the wrong trails. Like Peter Brady looking for his personality, stop doing a bad Bogart impression and be a better whatever you are.
chandler said:
Duke said:
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
In reply to Duke :
Without devolving into a Morpheus-Matrix, Plato’s Cave chin scratch of a discussion, I have driven fairly crude video games/sim setups (Need for Speed: Porsche Unleashed, Logitech Formula Force GP wheel) that had better steering feel and feedback than some rack-mounted electric power steering setups.
I’m not arguing that point at all.
They may very well be better. But they are not authentic.
Sorry; if they exist, they are authentic.
I disagree. Fake wood grain is real fake wood grain, true. But it is not authentic wood.
But it’s pointless for me to belabor it further.
Jesse Ransom said:
A slightly different take, maybe, just occurred to me.
Any time and effort spent on mimicking something else detracts from the ability to discern and improve what the thing really is.
Time spent chasing something else’s character is time wasted wandering down the wrong trails. Like Peter Brady looking for his personality, stop doing a bad Bogart impression and be a better whatever you are.
This. ^^^^^^
Tom1200 said:
The manufacturer is telling us they think we are so fragile that our minds will implode if we drive a car without an exhaust note.
A moderate skimming of anti-EV arguments suggests that they aren’t entirely wrong. Heck, half the reason people seem to hate CVTs is they don’t hear the engine revving up and down, which makes them think they aren’t actually accelerating.
As pointed out in the article, auditory feedback is visceral, and oftentimes subconscious.
Also, and unrelated to the question of synthetic feedback…
“Corner Rascal?”
“Grin Boost?”
I’m genuinely taken aback at this display of marketingspeak off the rails.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Why not a simple whine or whirring noise; the faux exhaust still seems pretentious to me…….
I’m all for the fake noise, make it sound like a WWII fighter plane, an 1800’s steam locomotive, a V8, or a screeching cat…as long as it’s JUST FOR YOU, piped into the interior of the vehicle for YOUR ears only.
The aftermarket Howitzer-esque “pops-n-bangs” t00ner-boyz have really ruined automotive sound for me, surprisingly, much more than any fart-can exhaust on a 90’s Accord ever did.
gearheadE30 said:
You’ll never win me over on an automatic being more fun. *eyes the 4HP22 in the corner distatefully* But I’m sure glad they’re trying, and I’d love nothing more than for them to prove me wrong.
porsche configurator says 911 carrera S with sport chrono package is *seven tenths* quicker 0-60 with PDK vs manual. so i guess it depends how we define “fun”. personally, i’d still take the manual, but i’d be lying to myself if i said it’s because the manual is the higher-performace choice.
Tom1200 said:
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Why not a simple whine or whirring noise; the faux exhaust still seems pretentious to me…….
Or worse (IMO) are when they add extra noise to ICE cars to “enhance” the experience. No…. It sounds great without your little speaker piping in fake noise. Let me enjoy that instead.
As for whether the enhancements take away joy, depends on how intrusive they are and how much they interfere. The TCS on the forte is intrusive and affects the throttle mapping, so I turn it to the first stage off. IT’s still on, but not as intrusive as it was. Some EPS systems imitate feel with weight. That’s not an enhancement, just a placebo. But a good PDK/DCT, great ABS and good throttle mapping are definitely good.
This is either hilarious or going to get me kicked off the patio:
- These “fake engine noise” threads always make me think of the meme about a subwoofer for use with airpods
- As it turns out, similar devices already exist. It also turns out the manufacturer of such devices fully supports developers with API, SDK, and documentation.
- We all know about the Torque app which reads OBDII. It also supports custom displays and outputs.
- Therefore, it should be a simple bit of code to get the two working together.
It is all just a spectrum of human-machine interface, from a simple shift light to a custom Torque app plugin.
Duke said:
z31maniac said:
Power-assisted brakes, power-assisted steering, etc, aren’t those all artifical enhancements? But I also embrace DCT’s, ABS, etc. I know I’m not Hammy or Alonso or Senna.
No, those are methods of controlling the vehicle. I don’t have any problem with automatic transmissions. Whether controls are power-assisted or not is irrelevant. They provide whatever mechanical feedback they provide, and that is authentic.
But anything that adds artificially-generated feedback is NOT authentic. And not enjoyable to me.
So what you’re saying is that artificially generated inputs are ok, but artificially generated outputs are bad?
Berck said:….
For some of us, simply the knowledge that it’s fake makes the experience less enjoyable. I disabled the fake engine noise on my Focus RS because the obvious fakery of it detracts my driving experience. Yet, if the noise were real, I’d enjoy it…..
^This.
I think all Teslas should come with a standard sound (“Jetsons” air car comes to mind 
) that varies with speed, or throttle setting. This could add to the usefulness and feedback the driver gets from tires singing. Accept this: the next generation will grow up with electric propulsion, make it have a useful sensory input to the driver.
But any fake “combustion” sound added – looking at you, BMW / Jaguar – or hum tube to transmit more engine sound – Ford, Chevy I think and there are more – would be enough to cause removal, disabling, or worst case prevent a purchase, IMO.
I’m just happy to see someone beat Dodge to the market! Dodge promised their EVs would have Hellcat like sounds as well.
If I ever see one of these local and on a lot, I may give it a test drive. I’m curious.
VolvoHeretic said:
I want turbo pop off valve noises every time I lift off the throttle.
I want compressor surge noises.
Part of the reason I liked playing Network Q RAC Rally Championship was the (ex-squirt) Cosworth, and ONLY that car, made the most amusing turbo chatter sounds like a real Garrett spinning at full steam into a closed throttle. The Subaru was faster and more reliable but the Cossie made me giggle. Because I could make it giggle, I suppose 
Haven’t manufacturers used artificial sound pumped through the speakers to ‘enhance’ the driving experience of ICE cars for a while now?
BMW comes to mind, and my not exactly stellar memory insists that a LOT of other manufacturers do the same. Either because of dull sounding engines, DB limits or just too much sound deadening in the cabin.
In reply to bobzilla :
I can understand, though. Between turbocharging and variable valve lift/variable valve timing destroying glorious intake noises, sound regulations destroying exhaust notes, and timing chains and direct injection making engines sound like a threshing machine, I’d want to cover that garbage up with something that sounds more pleasant, too.
A lot of the good engine sounds are intake noises. Watch Ronin, you hear muted exhaust, muted engine mechanical whirr, intake honk. Find and watch the original “Getaway in Stockholm”, to experience a flat six with a fairly quiet exhaust breathing through a pair of unmuffled 48 IDA 3 carburetors. Absolutely glorious. Loud exhausts sound low-rent, the essence is the intake!
I vote no. I want to hear and feel the car and what its saying. I autocross, some guys pop in their favorite music selection for the run, crank it up and launch. I find it distracting. I need to hear the car talking to me. Although one interesting thing I have experienced, passengers have been screaming their heads off on ride alongs and I really don’t hear it. A favorite soundtrack seems to make my brain lock in on it. In fact I find the “quiet” EV experience sort of like silently stalking the competition. I’m coming to get you, the body still feels what’s happening, seat of the pants doesn’t lie.
Even though my motto is, “If you can’t make it faster, make it louder.” I still want my mini van, truck, and my boat as quiet at it can get. Battery electric cars should have to have back up beepers sounding while going forwards. (I was almost run over by a Prius because I couldn’t hear it.)
bobzilla said:
In reply to Piguin :
Yea and they all suck.
My only (current) regret is that I have but one upvote to give for this post.
Trying to pipe engine noises into an EV is just admitting you can’t make EVs sound cool.
Let the EV’s cool sounds be heard by the driver, electric motor noises were half the reason I was willing to give EVs a chance.
I don’t mind new flavors as long as they’re authentic, I hate artificial flavors.
As for everything else, yeah, okay, steering and braking and traction controls are going to come around but don’t waste time, money (which turns into cost for me), and brainpower on trying to make the sensory changes they affect go away.
As matter of fact, no one does because it would be immensely wasteful and expensive. So canned/pipes sounds are the easy way out of building a car you’re not willing to make anymore.
Seems almost patronizing now.
i just cant wait to explain to my grandkids when only EVs are on the road that the fake exhaust noise is a throwback to the noises made by old archaic cars during operation of burning gasoline
In reply to StuntmanMike :
I’m reminded of my friend, the former high school teacher, relating being asked by kids why the “save” button looks like this:
