Can we *please* start an argument about one space behind a period or two? I’m solidly in the two spaces camp myself, not that it matters, of course.
Also the Oxford Comma; hot, or not? I say hot.
Bathroom doors that say “Mens”. I see it almost every day. Drives me a little nuts.
“Men” is plural. “Mens” is not a word.
The sign should say “Men” or “Men’s”.
“Needs replaced” or the like. It’s not hard to write “needs replacing” or “needs to be replaced”
My own “your” instead of “you’re”.
I know the difference, but my spellcheck often changes it to “your” when I type “you’re”and it annoys me. Sometimes I don’t catch it.
Decimated (which means reduce by 10%), instead of devastated, for when something is completely destroyed.
Incredible (which means not trust worthy) instead of extraordinary.
Missing Oxford comma.
And, in the age of spell check, there is no excuse for misspelled words.
Using “till” instead of ” ’til “. To till is to dig up the dirt. ” ’til” is the shortened version of “until”. I have even seen this in closed captions on TV, and I fear that it will be one of those errors that is just becoming acceptable.
And the use of apostrophe s for plural forms.
I’m weary of people using “wary” when they mean fatigued or exhausted… and the converse.
Same with anxious/excited. If you are anxious to see me, then don’t!
My favorite misspelling: the French word meaning “look” or “behold” —– walla!
Appleseed said:
“An historic…” This does not follow the rules.
A dog.
An apple.
Not so sure about that one. Do we sleep in “an hotel”?
When did hanged replace hung? There are a few similar to that.
The one that really gets me is when someone says he has an “ideal”. That may be local but I hear it a lot.
“An” is correct usage before words starting with “H”.
Hanged is the past tense of hang, as it relates to execution.
In reply to bludroptop :
You mean like “an happy moment”?
In reply to SV reX :
For the letter “H”, the pronunciation dictates the indefinite article: Use “a” before words where you pronounce the letter “H” such as “a hat,” “a house” or “a happy cat.” Use “an” before words where you don’t pronounce the letter “H” such as “an herb,” “an hour,” or “an honorable man.”
“He is risen” religious bumper stickers referring to Jesus. Is is present tense. The sky is blue. The Pontiac Aztek is cool. Risen is past tense. The Wright Flyer had risen to a height of 8 feet on their first flight.
Try reading “The Sun is risen at 6:07 today.” I get the religious aspect of Jesus being everything, everywhere, all at once, but that hurts the brain to read.
SV reX said:
Appleseed said:
“An historic…” This does not follow the rules.
A dog.
An apple.
Not so sure about that one. Do we sleep in “an hotel”?
No we do not. But we love saying, “Its an historic event.”
I Don’t Know Why Some People Capitalize The First Letter In Ever Word Of A Sentence. It Takes A Good Amount Of Extra Work And It Looks Silly.
Quiz question – what is the past tense of the word “sneak”?
Your answer tells me how old you are. Over 60 will likely say “sneaked” while younger people almost always say “snuck”.
Both are considered acceptable usage.
pres589 (djronnebaum) said:
Can we *please* start an argument about one space behind a period or two? I’m solidly in the two spaces camp myself, not that it matters, of course.
Also the Oxford Comma; hot, or not? I say hot.
I would subscribe to your well-written newsletter.
I’m firmly in the 2 spaces after a period camp as well. The slightly wider space helps with readability, just like paragraph breaks do on a larger scale.
And I will die on the hill of using the Oxford comma. I have never, ever, not once heard a compelling argument against using the Oxford comma that went deeper than “you shouldn’t have to.”
Well, guess what, I don’t have to write clearly at all. But why wouldn’t I want to do something that aids my readers’ comprehension?
I’ll give you one that irks me to no end: Needless to say.
If it’s needless to say, why are you saying it?
Help me with this one. In a lot of aircraft books, I see plural machine gun referred to correctly as machine guns, but plural cannon referred to as…cannon.
“The Spitfire MKIIb had 4 .303 machine guns and 2 20mm cannon.” Any guess as to why some authors do/did this?
TJL (Forum Supporter) said:
I Don’t Know Why Some People Capitalize The First Letter In Ever Word Of A Sentence. It Takes A Good Amount Of Extra Work And It Looks Silly.
After years of wondering this very thing, I have at least a partial explanation – some software automatically translates ALL CAPS POSTING into Title Case Posts.
But that aside, there are still people Who randomly Capitalize stray words throughout their Posts. A few years ago, there was a certain poster here of a certain age who did that.
I swear I’m going to hunt down and smack the next person that “needs to sale” something or has to “put it up for sell”. How can you mess that up?
Appleseed said:
“An historic…” This does not follow the rules.
A dog.
An apple.
That’s British usage. They use “an” in front of H-words like “hospital”.
pres589 (djronnebaum) said:
Also the Oxford Comma; hot, or not? I say hot.
Sorry that our pubs don’t use it! We’re in the camp of erring on the side of fewer commas. Have been, I believe, since before I started here. But I’m not opposed to the Oxford comma.
Ooh, I am going to like this thread more than the Rally Videos thread!
“Decimated” interests me, in that loanwords do not always bring their original meaning with them to their new language. Japanese is really fun for this because they seem to borrow the word, but then play fast and loose with the meaning, to where a speaker of the word’s original language may not recognize it.
“Decimated” means something different in English than it does in Latin. If I am speaking English, it means “completely destroyed”. If I am speaking Latin, then call some priests because some supernatural unpleasantness is about to go down 
I agree that “incredible” SHOULD mean “not credible” instead of what it does seem to mean, but language is created by people who, by and large, ignore the rules anyway. If I said “Subaru drops the BRZ”, does that mean they released a new model, or does it mean they stopped production? Think carefully, and remember that there are no right answers
My pet grammar peeve is the Greengrocer’s Apostrophe.
There is no word in English that is made plural by adding ‘S to it. None.
I don’t care if it ends in a vowel or not. It’s fine of you don’t always remember whether it should be a plain S (yoyos) or ES (potatoes).
But it is never ‘S.
Honestly I can’t think of any grammatical errors that really bother me. Words are all made up anyway.
Now math or scientific errors bother the hell out of me.
triumph7 said:
When did hanged replace hung? There are a few similar to that.
Ooh, this is another pet peeve of mine. When talking about the method of execution, it’s always been “hanged.”
pres589 (djronnebaum) said:
Can we *please* start an argument about one space behind a period or two? I’m solidly in the two spaces camp myself, not that it matters, of course.
Also the Oxford Comma; hot, or not? I say hot.
I can start AND end this argument pretty quick. No major style guide recommends two spaces. The final holdout was 2019 and it was like the American Pediatric Association or something like that. Or maybe Psychological Association. something with a P. Anyway, the majors (AP, Chicago, etc.), moved away from it loooong ago. Basically the age of word processors killed the double space.
Duke said:
My pet grammar peeve is the Greengrocer’s Apostrophe.
There is no word in English that is made plural by adding ‘s to it. None.
I don’t care if it ends in a vowel or not. It’s fine of you don’t always remember whether it should be a plain s (yoyos) or es (potatoes).
But it is never ‘s.
This, and its/it’s.
I have softened on this since getting a smartphone, such as the one I am using now, and finding that the keyboard software will helpfully insert an apostrophe in a plural word. And, it does not believe in the existence of “its”. It always takes three tries to type it.
Conversely, it will remove the apostrophe from something that is intended to be possessive. The camshaft’s lobe. The spring’s rate.
I am willing to accept that apostrophical faults are due to technology.
Sarah Young said:
pres589 (djronnebaum) said:
Also the Oxford Comma; hot, or not? I say hot.
Sorry that our pubs don’t use it! We’re in the camp of erring on the side of fewer commas. Have been, I believe, since before I started here. But I’m not opposed to the Oxford comma.
Yeah our main rules have always been “what makes the reading experience the most clear and enjoyable, while also adhering to actual rules.”
So we don’t really incorporate Oxford commas as a matter of course, but they will occasionally show up if one does meaningful work toward increasing the clarity of a sentence. Typically, though, a sentence needing an Oxford comma could be restructured to be even more clear and easy to digest by just reworking it so you don’t need the Oxford at all.
David S. Wallens said:
I’ll give you one that irks me to no end: Needless to say.
If it’s needless to say, why are you saying it?
Gotta hit that word count, baby
JG Pasterjak said:
pres589 (djronnebaum) said:
Can we *please* start an argument about one space behind a period or two? I’m solidly in the two spaces camp myself, not that it matters, of course.
I can start AND end this argument pretty quick. No major style guide recommends two spaces. Basically the age of word processors killed the double space.
Don’t care. I literally could not care less (see what I did there?).
It’s more readable with a single-space break between words, a double-space break between sentences, and a line break between paragraphs. It’s a consistent, tiered system.
JG Pasterjak said:
Typically, though, a sentence needing an Oxford comma could be restructured to be even more clear and easy to digest by just reworking it so you don’t need the Oxford at all.
I respectfully disagree. If you’re listing things, which is typically the reason for needing an Oxford comma, convoluting the sentence just to avoid the extra comma seems silly to me.
It’s like Winston Churchill saying “Up with this, I will not put,” just to avoid ending the sentence with a preposition.
JG Pasterjak said:
Typically, though, a sentence needing an Oxford comma could be restructured to be even more clear and easy to digest by just reworking it so you don’t need the Oxford at all.
Or as I like to say it, “that sentence needs to be taken out back and shot.”
I don’t know if it appears much in written grammar, but this bugs the berk out of me:
“Do you want to come with?”
With what? With you? With a big grin? With a case of beer?
Finish your damn sentence.
Appleseed said:
Help me with this one. In a lot of aircraft books, I see plural machine gun referred to correctly as machine guns, but plural cannon referred to as…cannon.
“The Spitfire MKIIb had 4 .303 machine guns and 2 20mm cannon.” Any guess as to why some authors do/did this?
I have seen references to “cannon” being the correct plural, or at least the accepted one, from the time of wooden sailing ships, so perhaps it is a relic of that.
As far as I know, only the USAF has bothered to make aircraft with proper broadsides, and not just little plinking defensive weapons.
Some of my favorites have been mentioned.
I absolutely detest the “needs fixed” phraseology. It needs TO BE fixed. It could need fixing, of course.
I’m guilty of this one myself, but foreign phrases should be italicized. For example, when you’re enjoying someone else’s troubles, you’re experiencing Schadenfreude.
The word is “you”. Not just a letter. Same for the word “are”.
When speaking, something about hearing the word “vehicle” pronounced as “vee-HICK-uhl” makes me insane.
Oxford commas should be required by law.
Two spaces after a period. No discussion.
It’s hard to read something where the author uses the same word to start sentences or paragraphs.
They’re/their/there, its/it’s, and their friends should be used properly. Autocorrect seems to change those on me without my consent sometimes, so I have to go back and change “it’s” to “its” when appropriate.
Oh. And “data” is plural.
jharry3 said:
Decimated (which means reduce by 10%), instead of devastated, for when something is completely destroyed.
Incredible (which means not trust worthy) instead of extraordinary.
Missing Oxford comma.
And, in the age of spell check, there is no excuse for misspelled words.
Spell check came with its moronic friend autocorrect though, which likes to make sentences unintelligible, and also insert the wrong spelling of the word you want to use.
Although I also stand behind my longstanding opinion that Americans as a whole are getting dumber and dumber and just force the language because they think it sounds right.
Color instead of colour
Neighbor instead of neighbour
Favorite instead of favourite
Bunch of damned colonials ,too lazy to spell complete words. 
I think there are some places where an Oxford comma helps with readability:
I got up this morning, combed my hair, and then walked to the bus.
I don’t think it’s necessary when listing three short item: red, white and blue.
Duke said:
JG Pasterjak said:
pres589 (djronnebaum) said:
Can we *please* start an argument about one space behind a period or two? I’m solidly in the two spaces camp myself, not that it matters, of course.
I can start AND end this argument pretty quick. No major style guide recommends two spaces. Basically the age of word processors killed the double space.
Don’t care. I literally could not care less (see what I did there?).
It’s more readable with a single-space break between words, a double-space break between sentences, and a line break between paragraphs.
JG Pasterjak said:
Typically, though, a sentence needing an Oxford comma could be restructured to be even more clear and easy to digest by just reworking it so you don’t need the Oxford at all.
I respectfully disagree. If you’re listing things, which is typically the reason for needing an Oxford comma, convoluting the sentence just to avoid the extra comma seems silly to me.
It’s like Winston Churchill saying “Up with this, I will not put,” just to avoid ending the sentence with a preposition.
The thing with most of our regular writers, though, is our writing styles are VERY similar to our speaking styles. And the oxford comma is not typically something that translates well to our natural communication styles. So part of the process is keeping the voices and brand of our writers consistent.
Now, the Shatner comma, on the, other, hand…
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:
I’m old and was an English major at one time. Therefore this is my bible:
We use AP style with certain exceptions. The online version is great since it allows you to search through Q&As with the AP style expert.
In reply to David S. Wallens :
Again, I respectfully disagree. To me, that “white and blue” has a vague ambiguity about whether it is two items (one white, one blue) or one item that is both white and blue.
Just avoiding an extra comma does not justify introducing a potential ambiguity.
I have noticed the Google auto-correct function on my phone corrects to the Oxford comma. It seems a bit excessive, but I roll with it.
Sometime around 20 years ago the word “versus” morphed into “verse” and that one is the source of a few facial tics I have.
But the biggest for me is “I seen” or “we seen”. Just out of the blue about 10 years ago it just sprang out of nowhere in the Pacific Northwest. My parents, who had never said anything like that my whole life were saying things like “Oh, do you know what we seen the other day?”
Duke said:
I don’t know if it appears much in written grammar, but this bugs the berk out of me:
“Do you want to come with?”
With what? With you? With a big grin? With a case of beer?
Finish your damn sentence.
Ha! When I read that sentence I immediately thought, with what..?
I got a million of em:
Things happen on purpose.
But things do not happen ON accident. They happen BY accident.
In reply to Sarah Young :
Plus it’s supplemented by the Official GRM Style Guide. (Seriously, we do have one–mostly technical terms.)
Grammar and spelling seem to be covered pretty well here, by people far more adept than I at the English language and all it’s technical aspects.
Design, on the other hand, is my forte. But, if I start in on design-related things that annoy me, I will be here forever and probably end up in a mental health facility in the process. 
Someone just said one to me…
“I don’t got no…”
As in, “I don’t got no work, I don’t got no car”…
Yikes!
If someone were to tell me “I have no work”, I’d probably have to hire him!
The use of less to mean fewer and which, when referring to people. The meaning of the sentence remains, but it sounds awkward and wrong to me.
lateapexer said:
The use of less to mean fewer and which, when referring to people. The meaning of the sentence remains, but it sounds awkward and wrong to me.
Oh, yes, I forgot about that one. For the record, Meijer has express checkouts that call for “12 items or fewer“.
Sonic said:
“Needs replaced” or the like. It’s not hard to write “needs replacing” or “needs to be replaced”
Tell me you’re from Pennsylvania without telling me you’re from Pennsylvania
See also “what for?” As in “What for motor you got in that thing?” I think that one is pretty clearly a German derived PA Dutch thing.
msterbeau said:
Grammar and spelling seem to be covered pretty well here, by people far more adept than I at the English language and all it’s technical aspects.
Design, on the other hand, is my forte. But, if I start in on design-related things that annoy me, I will be here forever and probably end up in a mental health facility in the process.
I don’t want to push you too far, but maybe you could spare one design-related annoyance? I don’t think anyone’s shared one so far.
Sarah Young said:
pres589 (djronnebaum) said:
Also the Oxford Comma; hot, or not? I say hot.
Sorry that our pubs don’t use it! We’re in the camp of erring on the side of fewer commas. Have been, I believe, since before I started here. But I’m not opposed to the Oxford comma.
I brought our original reference, The Chicago Manual of Style, to the pubs from my English-major background. David, who came to us as a journalism major, was an AP adherent; he eventually convinced me to use it, though it was a hard sell. I did, and still do, consider Chicago’s solutions to be generally more elegant. That includes the Oxford, or serial, comma. Win some, lose some.
As for the original topic, my absolute worst gripe is its/it’s, particularly the fact that Apple’s predictive logic invariably autocorrects my correct usage to the wrong one as I hit Send on a text. D’oh!
Margie
In reply to Sarah Young :
Similar to your grunge typeface with the repeating G, I hate seeing cheap faux-stone tile on the wall where every fourth or sixteenth tile has identical “imperfections” printed into it.
For those of us who write contracts for a living the Oxford Comma is essential.
There is a particular case involving a labor dispute whereby the lack of the Oxford Comma cost the company 10 million dollars.
I will give you the short version;
The contract read “storing, packing for shipment or distribution”
The lack of the comma made “packing for shipment and distribution” a single thing when the intent was for them to be two separate things. It should have read “storing, packing for shipment, or distribution”
Because the lack of the comma made two things, one thing, it was no longer eligible for the exemption under state law. The net result was the company involved now owed employees back overtime…………..to the tune of 10mil.
So if what your writing is two separate things “health, and safety” it needs and Oxford Comma. If it’s one thing “health and safety” then it does not.
SV reX said:
Someone just said one to me…
“I don’t got no…”
“Buddy the next word out of your mouth better be ‘satisfaction’ or you can turn around and leave my job site.”
Marjorie Suddard said:
Sarah Young said:
pres589 (djronnebaum) said:
Also the Oxford Comma; hot, or not? I say hot.
Sorry that our pubs don’t use it! We’re in the camp of erring on the side of fewer commas. Have been, I believe, since before I started here. But I’m not opposed to the Oxford comma.
I brought our original reference, The Chicago Manual of Style, to the pubs from my English-major background. David, who came to us as a journalism major, was an AP adherent; he eventually convinced me to use it, though it was a hard sell. I did, and still do, consider Chicago’s solutions to be generally more elegant. That includes the Oxford, or serial, comma. Win some, lose some.
As for the original topic, my absolute worst gripe is its/it’s, particularly the fact that Apple’s predictive logic invariably autocorrects my correct usage to the wrong one as I hit Send on a text. D’oh!
Margie
Regarding it’s vs. its, my new fave is its’.
I see it every now and then. I figure it’s like answering D, all of the above.
My one and only personal peeve and I’m not sure it is a case of grammar but it definitely involves style:
The use of “Functionality” to describe everyday or basic things.
The quality of being functional or “functionality” was made popular by the software industry but no one uses the word mal-functionality and so I tend to find it’s wide spread use pretentious.
“The new parts restored the brake system’s functionality” versus just saying “after installing the new parts the brakes now function properly”
Note I have an aversion to all things pretentious.
David S. Wallens said:
Regarding it’s vs. its, my new fave is its’.
I see it every now and then. I figure it’s like answering D, all of the above.
That is the plural possessive of “it”. Fewer letters to type than “their”.
In reply to Marjorie Suddard :
Pure ignorance and desperation are underrated………….many a defendant is walking the street by using these tactics.
In reply to pres589 (djronnebaum) :
One/two spaces is dictated by whatever style guide… IMO it looks goofy
Same for Oxford- it doesn’t actually add any clarity. Pointless and shouldn’t be used.
Sarah! Tell them to stop writing “rate of speed”! Speed is already a rate!
Qaaaaa said:
Same for Oxford- it doesn’t actually add any clarity. Pointless and shouldn’t be used.
You might want to read my post on a 10 million dollar lawsuit; the lack of an Oxford Comma cost a company 10 mil…………..I’d say the Oxford Comma is far from pointless.
Qaaaaa said:
In reply to pres589 (djronnebaum) :
Same for Oxford- it doesn’t actually add any clarity. Pointless and shouldn’t be used.
Don’t make me drag this old chestnut out:
Even if you reword that to be “JFK, Stalin and the strippers“, the lack of Oxford comma implies a connection between Stalin and the strippers that may or may not exist. It’s certainly different from the way JFK is included in that sentence.
So I comprehensively disagree that the serial comma does not add clarity.
I worked for an Ohioan and I date a Pennsylvanian. The “needs fixed” type of phrases drive me nuts.
I also get annoyed by the misuse of possessive plurals. My neighbor’s name is Jarvis and his company is Jarvis’ Towing, where it should be Jarvis’s Towing. What he’s implying is that his name is Jarvi, there are multiple of him, and they own a towing company. I see his trucks every morning.
In reply to buzzboy :
Sorta related, how many mailbox signs do you see that say The Goldberg’s or whatever?
750$. The dollar sign goes before the number.
Mines. What brand of coilovers do you have? Mines are…
Gears. What gears do you wear when riding your motorcycle?
There is a rental home I bike by daily that is named Great S’cape. Is it Great Seascape?
myf16n said:
750$. The dollar sign goes before the number.
Heh. 750 dollars = $750. But 750 percent = 750%…. in American English. %750 elsewhere.
David S. Wallens said:
In reply to buzzboy :
Sorta related, how many mailbox signs do you see that say The Goldberg’s or whatever?
My MIL has one that says Suddard’s next to her front door. She’s never figured out why I say “Suddard’s what?” every time I pass by it.
David S. Wallens said:
In reply to buzzboy :
Sorta related, how many mailbox signs do you see that say The Goldberg’s or whatever?
It’s works as a possessive statement…………the mailbox does indeed belong to the Goldbergs as a group so therefore putting Goldberg’s is ok…………….unless of course only one Goldberg lives there then it would need a first name, example Jake Goldberg’s, to be correct.
“VIN Number”
Also, the emoji has no place in a business setting.
In reply to Tom1200 :
That’s legal text. You do a lot of weird stuff in contracts that you don’t do in normal writing.
In reply to Duke :
I disagree. The “JFK/Stalin/strippers” example is a ridiculous case that gets brought up to demonstrate why it would be used, but a ridiculous case has to be shown because in normal English, no such scenario ordinarily arises where clarity is added. Moreover, if there were an association between Stalin and the strippers, you would treat them as one direct object and write the sentence as “I brought JFK and Stalin and the strippers” the same way you’d write “I drank Martinis and Gin and Juice”. Note the absence of commas.
Furious_E (Forum Supporter) said:
Sonic said:
“Needs replaced” or the like. It’s not hard to write “needs replacing” or “needs to be replaced”
Tell me you’re from Pennsylvania without telling me you’re from Pennsylvania
See also “what for?” As in “What for motor you got in that thing?” I think that one is pretty clearly a German derived PA Dutch thing.
Shakespeare: To be or not to be…
Shakespeare in Pennsyltucky: Or not…
Talk about first-world problems. I am sure there is something in this world that bothers me less than poor grammar and spelling but I can’t think of it at the moment.
In a forum environment, as long as I understand what they are trying to say then communication was successful even if they mangled the grammar.
In a magazine environment with a professional editor, I would expect better and might note mistakes but I wouldn’t be up in arms about them.
* Disclaimer: This post was written and edited by a person who absolutely sucked at English when in school. All spelling and grammar mistakes are solely the fault of the writer and he does not particularly care if it is incorrect.
That said, Oxford was right. 
For a while, “bespoke” was the word of the day and it seemed like every article in every publication used it. Fortunately like most trends it has for the most part faded to obscurity.
Yeah, yeah. I know it means custom. But here in the automotive world, the parlance has been “custom cars”. Bespoke is primarily used for clothing and furnishings. Get off my lawn.
I may step on some toes with this one. I apologize in advance.
Plural pronouns for individuals.
I don’t mind gender fluidity. Don’t mind transsexuals, or individuals who identify as a gender other than the one of their birth.
I don’t have any capacity to understand who we are talking about when my son refers to his girlfriend as “they”.
“They are going to NYC”
“Oh really? Who is she traveling with?”
“They are going alone.”
I get it. English doesn’t express gender neutrality well. But plurals don’t express individuals well either, and it gets really confusing.
(At least it’s not Spanish, where EVERY noun is a masculine or feminine gender… La Papa is MUCH different than El Papa. One is a potato, and one is the Pope)
1. “how is everything tasting for you?”
what the actual berkeley are you asking me, dear server?
firstly (see what i did there, readers of grammar thread?), my food has flavor, which i taste. the food has flavor. it is a characteristic, not an action. the action is done by me. i taste the flavor of the food.
secondly (damn, i’m funny!), “for you” implies some action on the part of the food. maybe i’m just ranting now and this is already covered by my first point. but it angers me. so i answer “It’s great.” but in my mind i’m saying “its’ grate.” because berkeley you, that’s why.
2. my wife has recently taken to saying “I’m liking _____.” fill in the blank with the new wall color in the kitchen, or Taylor Swift’s new haircut, or whatever the berkeley. I correct her every single time, and yes, it really is a hill worthy of my death.
Qaaaaa said:
In reply to Duke :
I disagree. The “JFK/Stalin/strippers” example is a ridiculous case that gets brought up to demonstrate why it would be used, but a ridiculous case has to be shown because in normal English, no such scenario ordinarily arises where clarity is added. Moreover, if there were an association between Stalin and the strippers, you would treat them as one direct object and write the sentence as “I brought JFK and Stalin and the strippers” the same way you’d write “I drank Martinis and Gin and Juice”. Note the absence of commas.
It doesn’t seem ridiculous to me at all. If we switch the names, it’s an everyday occurrence…
“We invited the drivers, Bob, and Jim” looks like three different entities to me (the drivers, Bob, and Jim). It might be MANY people (10 drivers, plus Bob and Jim).
“We invited the drivers, Bob and Jim” looks like 2 entities named Bob and Jim who both happen to be drivers. Only 2 people.
In reply to SV reX :
I’ll cede that there are some contexts where it makes sense to use it. The serial comma absolutism that some people explicitly call for is absurd, though.
David S. Wallens said:
In reply to Sarah Young :
Plus it’s supplemented by the Official GRM Style Guide. (Seriously, we do have one–mostly technical terms.)
I really wish we had an official style guide that included this where I work. There are multiple style guides which are not enforced or even known about in my discipline where I currently work and almost no one I’ve spoken to even knows what a style guide is. The last time I saw this was really outdated and was mostly concerned with page number placement and style and the size of margins.
And we do a whole lot of technical writing. It’s not a great situation.
EDIT: And about serial aka Oxford commas; I feel like they help you know if any commas are needed. If two commas do not work in the sentence, do you really need one? It’s a good question to ask.
From work: I have to bite down hard on my tongue every time I hear someone call the fiscal year the physical year, which is often. (apologies if this is a repeat. I didn’t read the whole thread. I’m going to come back later and do that when I feel like getting riled up.)
Qaaaaa said:
In reply to Duke :
I disagree. The “JFK/Stalin/strippers” example is a ridiculous case that gets brought up to demonstrate why it would be used, but a ridiculous case has to be shown because in normal English, no such scenario ordinarily arises where clarity is added. Moreover, if there were an association between Stalin and the strippers, you would treat them as one direct object and write the sentence as “I brought JFK and Stalin and the strippers” the same way you’d write “I drank Martinis and Gin and Juice”. Note the absence of commas.
Feel free to disagree, but you will not convince me on this. I think such scenarios arise all the time. In fact, you proved my point in your rewrite above.
In “I brought JFK and Stalin and the strippers” you are indeed now treating all 3 objects equally. However, instead of an implied (and possibly spurious) connection, you have now made it ambiguous whether any connection even exists or not. So without a lot more contextual reading, there is no way to discern which is the intended grouping:
- JFK / Stalin + strippers
- JFK + Stalin / strippers
- JFK + Stalin + strippers
- JFK / Stalin / strippers
So in your inexplicable desire to save a measly comma, you are:
- Forcing your reader to do a lot more contextual reading and/or have enough detailed knowledge of grammar rules to inherently understand that the combined direct object will always be in the last position;
- Introducing no fewer than 4 possible ambiguities; or
- Both of the above
Instead of all that, you could just add the extra comma in the appropriate place and be done with it.
Qaaaaa said:
In reply to Tom1200 :
That’s legal text. You do a lot of weird stuff in contracts that you don’t do in normal writing.
Yes, but you declared it was pointless.
Sincerly, your freind and professional pedant…………….
In reply to pres589 (djronnebaum) :
Our style guide is nothing fancy. I think it was born as a Word doc–actually, likely ClarisWorks or AppleWorks as it was that long ago.
We now have it online so we can all easily access it.
The big thing for us is to create standards.
An example: How to denote a wheel’s bolt pattern? You can argue that “four by a hundred” and “4x100mm” are both correct, but how to remember how to write it next time?
As someone that shares the “myself” misusage pet peeve…a fav line in one of our popular movies:
“Allow myself to introduce…err, myself.”
bludroptop said:
Quiz question – what is the past tense of the word “sneak”?
Your answer tells me how old you are. Over 60 will likely say “sneaked” while younger people almost always say “snuck”.
Both are considered acceptable usage.
I like how you snook that in.
People saying “I’m going to the ATM machine”. That literally expands to “Automated Teller Machine Machine”.
People posting anything about their car’s “breaks”. No, you mean “brakes”.
People starting a sentence with “So …”, as in “So, I wanted to go to the ATM Machine but my car’s breaks failed.”
I’m done complaining for the moment.
In my community we joke about the three tenses of “bring” (brang and brung). And contractors “higher” and “bigger” projects instead of making them taller or larger. And people bring things away with them. And they do things “a minute” ie “I’m going to town a minute”. My parents were well educated in England and always spoke carefully and correctly and never got used to rural shorthand.
Ranger50 said:
Engrish is hard.
English is what you get when the design was done by a committee and the rules were written by a different committee with OCD.
Toyman! said:
Ranger50 said:
Engrish is hard.
English is what you get when the design was done by a committee and the rules were written by a different committee with OCD.
English is flexible not like a lithe gymnast, but like a man with all of his bones broken.
racerfink said:
I just follow my mentor…
That’s awesome! I forgot about that one…
I’m so excited to be the first to post the best grammer joke: “eats, shoots and leaves.”
I have a personal agenda against passive sentences and attributing actions to inanimate objects. The car didn’t go out of control. You lost control. Cars have no agency.
Wow – 5 pages about grammar & usage since morning coffee! I think Sarah gets the “I Started Something” award for the month.
Respectfully quoting DSW, “I’ll give you one that irks me to no end:” saying “to no end” when the phrase is actually just “no end.” I know that I’ve probably already lost this battle and English belongs to younger people now, but “no end” means (or at any rate used to mean) without end, or boundlessly. “To no end” means without purpose.
In reply to David S. Wallens :
What I would really like for my area is a released document with a rev block that covers the last, say, five revisions so folks can see when things changed. Or two year’s worth of revisions, which ever is longer, so people can say “yeah we stopped doing that about 18 months ago”. Released so it’s under revision control and reachable through the normal documents library like any other technical document. And with lots of examples and such.
With a small org, say 50 or fewer writers, I would think a wiki would be sufficient as long as it’s locked so only a few people can modify it. And it’s easy to access and pass links to each other to pertinent sections of the document.
I like tech writing and I don’t love ambiguity which leads to who wants to argue more to get what they want.
Stealthtercel said:
Wow – 5 pages about grammar & usage since morning coffee! I think Sarah gets the “I Started Something” award for the month.
Respectfully quoting DSW, “I’ll give you one that irks me to no end:” saying “to no end” when the phrase is actually just “no end.” I know that I’ve probably already lost this battle and English belongs to younger people now, but “no end” means (or at any rate used to mean) without end, or boundlessly. “To no end” means without purpose.
And “in hospital” means something different from “in the hospital”, although as an unwashed American with a funny accent, I forget what the distinction is.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
Ooh, I am going to like this thread more than the Rally Videos thread!
“Decimated” interests me, in that loanwords do not always bring their original meaning with them to their new language. Japanese is really fun for this because they seem to borrow the word, but then play fast and loose with the meaning, to where a speaker of the word’s original language may not recognize it.
“Decimated” means something different in English than it does in Latin. If I am speaking English, it means “completely destroyed”. If I am speaking Latin, then call some priests because some supernatural unpleasantness is about to go down
I agree that “incredible” SHOULD mean “not credible” instead of what it does seem to mean, but language is created by people who, by and large, ignore the rules anyway. If I said “Subaru drops the BRZ”, does that mean they released a new model, or does it mean they stopped production? Think carefully, and remember that there are no right answers
I despise “completely destroyed,” because it’s redundant. You don’t say something is “partially destroyed.”
thatsnowinnebago said:
I’m so excited to be the first to post the best grammer joke: “eats, shoots and leaves.”
I have a personal agenda against passive sentences and attributing actions to inanimate objects. The car didn’t go out of control. You lost control. Cars have no agency.
It is the name of a book about grammar.
I also try to avoid passive sentences, since we also do Tech Writing with active sentences. One of the easiest ways to catch is to avoid “to be” constructions.
David S. Wallens said:
In reply to pres589 (djronnebaum) :
Our style guide is nothing fancy. I think it was born as a Word doc–actually, likely ClarisWorks or AppleWorks as it was that long ago.
We now have it online so we can all easily access it.
The big thing for us is to create standards.
An example: How to denote a wheel’s bolt pattern? You can argue that “four by a hundred” and “4x100mm” are both correct, but how to remember how to write it next time?
Here’s a peak at the entire C section of our house style guide. 
In reply to Sarah Young :
must not make joke about cutting that out of the middle of the guide
Reading that reminds me of a technical peeve I have and try to keep clear: the thing that bolts to the end of the crankshaft that dampens torsional harmonics is a harmonic damper. SOME of them also incorporate crank balance weights, these can be called balancers. But, none of them are “harmonic balancers” because they do not balance any harmonics, they damp harmonics.
If it does not have any damping properties, it is just a crank pulley or crank hub, depending on its function.
In reply to Sarah Young :
We have two massive internal style guides and then if we can’t find the answer in either one, we go to the Microsoft Style Guide then if the answer isn’t there, the Chicago Style Guide is next.
pres589 (djronnebaum) said:
Can we *please* start an argument about one space behind a period or two? I’m solidly in the two spaces camp myself, not that it matters, of course.
Also the Oxford Comma; hot, or not? I say hot.
One space on modern computer docs. Two spaces is a relic of the typewriter.
Big yes on the Oxford Comma.
I don’t see it often when I’m reading a book, but magazine articles are notorious for ending a line of text with a hyphenated word that carries over to the next page.
My father was a printer, and he considered this to be a cardinal sin.
I’m not sure if it my age or my children’s education but some brain cells die when my two kids say they ‘versed’ or are ‘versing’ someone. As in, “I’m versing Sam in GTA right now” or “Who am I versing in my hockey game this weekend?”
Is that a thing now?
Sarah Young said:
Here’s a peak at the entire C section of our house style guide.
LOL at peak vs. peek, in this context, from the thread-starter.
Old_Town said:
I’m not sure if it my age or my children’s education but some brain cells die when my two kids say they ‘versed’ or are ‘versing’ someone. As in, “I’m versing Sam in GTA right now” or “Who am I versing in my hockey game this weekend?”
Is that a thing now?
If I heard my kids say that they would suddenly be versed in getting slapped upside the head.
I had a disagreement with a PhD math professor from Oxford once. They ended up being wrong. I find their comma just about as useful. I also wouldn’t let my daughter attend their institution or any other host of big name universities for a variety of reasons.
I’d tell you the grammar issue that bothers me most but the forum would erupt in rage.
In reply to z31maniac :
Two things can be true. It’s a title and a joke about panda bears with guns. A delightful combo.
How about the rampant abuse of the word “literally”?
wae said:
How about the rampant abuse of the word “literally”?
Must not post snarky comment……must resist, must resist.
Tom1200 said:
wae said:
How about the rampant abuse of the word “literally”?
Must not post snarky comment……must resist, must resist.
It’s literally impossible not to.
A personal design thing that bugs me: graphics that are supposed to resemble handwriting.
For an example, my own BMX frame:
I just find it looking a bit weak. I bought my frame like 8 years ago, though, and S&M is still using that look so I guess they’re happy with it. I just wish it had bolder graphics.
I dislike when required punctuation is not used and the end result is misdirection.
This courtesy of Hilti:
Incorrect: 100 Skeena North, Vancouver BC
Correct: 100 Skeena, North Vancouver BC
Two different cities fortunately each is not far from the bridge one must cross.
This leads to my belief that punctuation is really important.
In reply to SV reX :
“They” isn’t an exclusively plural word in the linguistic sense. The singular “they” has been in use since around the 14th century and is a regular part of the English language. If continuing to use the singular they makes more of us at ease in the world, I’m not sure why it would be something to refuse to adjust to, especially when there are ways to ask for clarification on who “they” is in any context without actively misgendering them.
As someone who is a bit of a linguistics geek, my pet peeve is when people get uptight about old rules and/or refuse to acknowledge that language, especially spoken language and casual writing, is flexible.
Embracing that flexibility makes you better at communicating not just facts, but also emotions and what the kids these days call *vibes*. The way a person writes or speaks gives context clues about where they’re from, what media they consume, and what level they’re trying to connect with their audience on. What some see as a grammatical mistake might be an allusion to a meme or other piece of media that the writer/speaker knows their audience has also consumed and will remember.
Words and grammar rules are constantly being transformed, adapted for new uses, borrowed from other languages or even invented from scratch to describe new objects or experiences. That’s why even the major style guides get annual updates.
Nicole Suddard said:
actively misgendering them.
before i can misgender someone, do i first have to gender them? and is gender really a verb these days? i know what you mean, so please don’t take this as an opportunity to educate me about incorrectly assuming someone’s gender. but i vehemently protest “gender” as a verb.
In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
The one that drives me crazy at work is “solution”. As in, “Bill can you solution the storage portion of this RFP response?”
Also, I am only willing to admit that it’s okay to use words however you want because “language evolves” if we also agree that it’s okay for me to think someone’s an uneducated buffoon when they literally can’t even.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
Verbing nouns makes me imagine someone like Christina Ricci’s character in Matrix: Resurrections.
sometimes it makes sense, like how i use google to google.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:
Nicole Suddard said:
actively misgendering them.
before i can misgender someone, do i first have to gender them? and is gender really a verb these days? i know what you mean, so please don’t take this as an opportunity to educate me about incorrectly assuming someone’s gender. but i vehemently protest “gender” as a verb.
Tons of words get verbified in the name of clarity and brevity. Ever “email” anything? Ever “microwave” popcorn? Language is as much an organism as it is a system, which is one of the super fun things about it.
JG Pasterjak said:
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:
Nicole Suddard said:
actively misgendering them.
before i can misgender someone, do i first have to gender them? and is gender really a verb these days? i know what you mean, so please don’t take this as an opportunity to educate me about incorrectly assuming someone’s gender. but i vehemently protest “gender” as a verb.
Tons of words get verbified in the name of clarity and brevity. Ever “email” anything? Ever “microwave” popcorn? Language is as much an organism as it is a system, which is one of the super fun things about it.
and those work because there is an activity that is directly and logically associated with them, just like xeroxing. i suggest that verbing gender doesn’t work the same way.
In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
“Gender” isn’t a verb but “misgender” is. Merriam Webster tells me it’s been in use since 1989.
As an aside, is anyone else trying REALLY hard with their grammar and spelling in their replies here?
Nicole Suddard said:
In reply to SV reX :
“They” isn’t an exclusively plural word in the linguistic sense. The singular “they” has been in use since around the 14th century and is a regular part of the English language. If continuing to use the singular they makes more of us at ease in the world, I’m not sure why it would be something to refuse to adjust to, especially when there are ways to ask for clarification on who “they” is in any context without actively misgendering them.
The problem with “they” and pronouns in general is that, whether speaking or writing, in an ongoing conversation or paragraph it leaves the reader or listener wondering which they, she, or he one is referring to.
I typically refer to a person by name; from a contracting standpoint pronouns are out. I like to carry that over to personal life as well because it cuts down on any confusion.
thatsnowinnebago said:
As an aside, is anyone else trying REALLY hard with their grammar and spelling in their replies here?
No……………I’m phoning the grammar in as usual……….also note my proof reading is crap as well; because it’s a forum.
Worrying about such things on a forum would be like wearing a tux to a barbeque at the beach.
thatsnowinnebago said:
In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
“Gender” isn’t a verb but “misgender” is. Merriam Webster tells me it’s been in use since 1989.
As an aside, is anyone else trying REALLY hard with their grammar and spelling in their replies here?
Nope, because I’m not being paid to write forum responses. I do at work, since it’s what I’ve been paid to do for almost 16 years. And a lot of style guide stuff revolves around localization of documentation (translation to other languages). At a previous winch company, we found out the German manuals had been mistranslated by an outside company……..so when you were told to “lube the cable of your winch” they translated lube as like using sex lube to do so.
As to the Panda thing, I was pointing it out for others if they never heard of it. Someone bought it for me as a gift when I was working on my Journalism degree, but I don’t think I ever read it.
Another one is the word “that.” In many sentence constructions, it’s completely superfluous and adds no additional meaning to the sentence.
I needed a lid for the center council of my Volvo.
If ever I murder someone, that will be the reason.
bludroptop said:
Has stood the test of time and highly recommended – a lousy $6 bucks from Amazon.
Clearly that is “writing style”, b/c in terms of graphic design WTF is going on with using a different font for the last name of one author but the first name (okay, initials) of the other?!
Just thought of this one. My Indian friend, who was kicked out of Uganda as a teenager when Mr. Amin did his little deal, has a phrase that sounds odd.
“BMWs are piece of E36 M3’s.” Not pieces of E36 M3. One could argue, probably unsuccessfully, that his use is correct. That BMW is E36 M3. That BMW is a piece of E36 M3. I guess, if piece of E36 M3 is a compound word, he’d be right.
Now I’m questioning my apostrophe placement, but I’m enjoying the slagging of BMWs.
Oapfu said:
bludroptop said:
Has stood the test of time and highly recommended – a lousy $6 bucks from Amazon.
Clearly that is “writing style”, b/c in terms of graphic design WTF is going on with using a different font for the last name of one author but the first name (okay, initials) of the other?!
That is horrible design.
triumph7 said:
When did hanged replace hung? There are a few similar to that.
The one that really gets me is when someone says he has an “ideal”. That may be local but I hear it a lot.
I agree with that. A person did not hanged themselves, they hung themselves. I hung up my shirts not I hanged up my shirts.
Streetwiseguy said:
Just thought of this one. My Indian friend, who was kicked out of Uganda as a teenager when Mr. Amin did his little deal, has a phrase that sounds odd.
“BMWs are piece of E36 M3’s.” Not pieces of E36 M3. One could argue, probably unsuccessfully, that his use is correct. That BMW is E36 M3. That BMW is a piece of E36 M3. I guess, if piece of E36 M3 is a compound word, he’d be right.
Now I’m questioning my apostrophe placement, but I’m enjoying the slagging of BMWs.
So I’ll defend your friend thusly:
BMWs are piece of Poos; read they are less than the sum of their parts and those parts are poo.
Nicole Suddard said:
In reply to SV reX :
“They” isn’t an exclusively plural word in the linguistic sense. The singular “they” has been in use since around the 14th century and is a regular part of the English language. If continuing to use the singular they makes more of us at ease in the world, I’m not sure why it would be something to refuse to adjust to, especially when there are ways to ask for clarification on who “they” is in any context without actively misgendering them.
I never said I would refuse to adjust to it. I offered my own opinion in response to the question at hand. I make very big efforts to adjust as desired and be respectful. But the usage does annoy me.
I’m also not convinced it is as easy to clarify as you describe. Has GRM ever asked the people it writes about what their preferred pronoun is? Because I’ve never seen it in print. I’m quite certain the company I work for has never asked that question of anyone.
I have several people in my own family who prefer plural pronouns, and I use them regularly. Even with the knowledge of who prefers what and a generally clear understanding of what everyone is talking about, it still creates confusion regularly.
If continuing to use the singular “they” makes FEWER people at ease in the world (who are uncomfortable doing it), is it still OK? I think respect goes both ways.
That’s why I love my son’s girlfriend. She gives me grace when I make a mistake. I have other people in my family who are not as kind.
Ranger50 said:
for sell
If I see something I want to buy listed as “for sell” I wont contact them. I know they’re gonna suck.
Andy Hollis said:
All I know is I got “plethora” into print.
My work here is done.
I got derecho winds into print this last quarter. It made my day.
Nothing is wrong with language evolving and adapting. Manipulation of words to twist lies into truth is where I draw the line. Again, most examples of this won’t fly here because for some strange reason in any form media most people take the less honest option.
And Berkeley proofreading forum posts!
Andy Hollis said:
All I know is I got “plethora” into print.
My work here is done.
You wrote an article for C&D?
Sarah Young said:
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:
thatsnowinnebago said:
In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
As an aside, is anyone else trying REALLY hard with their grammar and spelling in their replies here?
Sarah Young clearly is.
I’m totally decimated.
That’s kind of a mute point, I suppose
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:
Sarah Young said:
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:
thatsnowinnebago said:
In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
As an aside, is anyone else trying REALLY hard with their grammar and spelling in their replies here?
Sarah Young clearly is.
I’m totally decimated.
That’s kind of a mute point, I suppose
It’s not like you could of made a big deal over it.
I always proofread my posts. And if I find a mistake in one of my posts, even days later, I fix it.
On the design peeves:
Typefaces or graphic designs that mix a random lower case letter in among all caps or small caps.
Yes, I always proofread my posts too, and edit them. I can’t help it.
Here’s one, how about the use of quotation marks for random emphasis?
Here’s an actual example, from two restrooms, approximately 20 feet apart in the same public location.
Employees “must” wash hands
Employees must “wash” hands
